Kim Werker: Blog - Latest Comments in Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

Kim Werker — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:15:05 -0000

What may be? I'm not sure what you mean.

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

Nancy — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 04:16:35 -0000

That may be because some people do not believe in murder.

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

blondechicken — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:00:29 -0000

Sadly, he doesn't know how to make it understandable, he's just passionate about the idea of everyone learning as much as they can about the election. He thinks it's our Civic Duty. But he was a Boy Scout, so what can you expect? :)

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

knitgrrl — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 17:44:58 -0000

It's funny, because I've always taken the position that women should make their own decisions about their healthcare, their bodies, etc.......and then I read about something like this and I have to almost rethink my position!

For someone who has all the access to information in the world (compared to, say, a teenage girl in denial about her pregnancy, or someone without any real healthcare options, like a migrant farmworker), Palin sure as heck made a reckless decision there. And WHY? Was it really so important to attend that conference in Texas? Even if you've already had several children and think you know all there is to know -- things happen. Prudent, reasonable people prepare for the worst case scenario. If she's willing to take those kinds of risks in her personal life, what kind of risks will she find acceptable in making decisions that affect the country?

I agree with Melissa. You can't have it "all." I think anyone who grew up when (most of) us did figured that out at some point and made our choices accordingly. I don't think anyone should be able to dictate WHAT you have to do -- i.e. you HAVE to stay home and have children, you HAVE to go to work at a big fancy corporate job -- but I'd like to see someone in the running for such a high office display a little more common sense than most.

I want someone who considers all the options and chooses the one least likely to end badly if there isn't one "best" option. Is that asking so much?

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

kristi — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 16:57:18 -0000

Or, that after her water broke in Texas, she chose to fly home to Alaska to have the baby! Knowing that you are at risk of complication due to maternal age, that your fifth baby, a month premature, could come quickly, and that you are carrying a child you know may require special attention at birth... I can't think of any woman I know who would decide the right thing is to hop on an 8+ hour plane trip instead of high-tailing it to the nearest appropriate hospital. Thank goodness all went well, but if that's the sort of "maverick" decision she makes for herself and her own child, I worry.

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

Melissa — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 09:01:21 -0000

Okay... I didn't want to get involved, but I will. For me, the distaste towards Sarah Palin is more personal, even, than political. YES, I always consider who could land on the Supreme Court. YES, abortion can be a single-issue vote for me. However, I think that Palin is a total hypocrite, and THAT is what I have such a problem with. Here's why: She puts herself out on this motherhood and apple pie platform. But, she's a woman who concealed her pregnancy from everyone (including her own children and parents) until the seventh month, knowing that she would have a special-needs child, and then returned to work three days after his birth.

Everyone has his/her priorities. I get that (and I respect it... my values aren't for everyone and that's fine). But, if you are going to go back to work with a three-day-old baby at home, then don't claim to be a supermom and don't attempt to make yourself relatable as a working mother. I am a working mother, and the value that is most important to me is my work/life balance. It's cliche, I know, but it's the truth of my life. I would like to have government leaders who are sensitive to things like the Family and Medical Leave Act. I want them to approve MORE benefits and MORE flexibility for working parents. I have a hard time believing that someone who was okay with returning to work three days after having a baby is really going to be sympathetic to the working mom who needs more leave time.

Further, I don't want this to be interpreted to mean that I don't think that women can do great things or have powerful jobs. I was a Hillary supporter and I think she would have been fabulous for this country. However, my guess is that Hillary couldn't make it as mother of the year. I want her to be my president -- not my mom. The contrast, though, is that Hillary never put herself out on that whole I-am-Mommy-hear-me-roar platform -- she never claimed to be just like me because we're both working mothers. I respect that. I don't respect someone who has five (four?) kids, one of whom is a newborn, who is accepting a potential job that will require her to move her family to Washington, away from the supposedly close-knit support system they have in Alaska; that has already required her to be on the road consistently for months in her campaign; and that will also require her to travel and be unavailable for a good portion of the time if in office. Who does that, and then claims that she can "relate" to the average American mom/woman?

Again, this all has very little to do with politics. It has everything to do with her hypocrisy in maintaining a personal/professional life and how she portrays herself. I don't care what anyone says; you CANNOT have it all. I think that there are lots of women who are great moms and go a great job in their careers -- but none of them is vice president of the United States.

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

Annette — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:18:14 -0000

I hope you didn't think I meant that Americans are clueless - I was talking about how you feel when you look at US politics from a European point of view!

However, this discussion has helped me make a little progress on the road to understanding.
The role of religion is so much more important in the US than here, and the contributions to this thread have made me more capable to understand how it affects people's standpoints.
Soooo interesting!

And I think Dawn is right about the scale. Europeans tend to think about the United States as a country - which it is, of course. But it's a huge one!

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

kristi — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 10:04:47 -0000

okay, forgive me for opening a can of worms maybe, but this thread has me thinking, "How did abortion rights become the single issue for single-issue voters?" When did it happen, what were the dynamics? Roe v. Wade was decided in 72-73. It wasn't a leading issue (and certainly not an election winning issue) until much more recently. Anyone know the history or dynamics of this?

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

Amie — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 10:40:10 -0000

"For myself I will say that just because I'm free with expressing my opinions, doesn't mean I'm making a statement about yours or trying to drive anyone away."

And here lies the statement I was having trouble articulating earlier, to which my response is an astounding, "YES!" And thank you for articulating that.

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

Amie — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 10:22:27 -0000

Don't you think choosing not to read someone's blog because they disagree with you politically is, in a sense, shutting yourself off? I choose to read columnists of both parties and find interesting points of view on both sides of the fence - and many places in between - no matter what flavor the writer brings to the table. It helps to understand what the other side is thinking, feeling. I don't think there are any successful politicians who only surround themselves with "Yes" men/women, McCain and Obama included.

I also believe taking someone's opinion about the party you support as a personal jab isn't necessarily the best way to handle it. I choose not to get offended when someone makes liberal jokes when I've labeled myself just that; if I let it bother me, it owns me, has control over me. I choose not to let it.

Then again, I don't post stalk or peek into the Conservative Rav groups wondering what they're saying about my party affiliation. It doesn't bother me that others have differing opinions. I'm secure in my own not to worry about it.

I know I'll still read someone's blog, column, or continue to maintain someone's friendship - if it's someone I know personally - even if their fundamental beliefs are different than my own (Mary Jane Hall couldn't be any further opposite from me in every fiber of her being and I value her friendship, her calm approach to life regardless of politics and religious affiliations). That's how we learn and grow as people. I feel the moment you've chosen not to listen to the other side, you've lost the chance to understand and relate on some level.

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

Dawn — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 14:38:48 -0000

Wow, this has gotten really interesting since last I checked in. This is the type of discussion I love to read. I find it absolutely engrossing to hear not only what people think, but the reasoning behind it. If only there could be a bit more agree to disagree in the world!

Comment from this peanut gallery:

1) Regarding Annette's musing about how we don't "get it"...I get this a lot from foreign residing friends and I've come to think it has to do more with our scale than anything else. We're so vast both geographically and numerically. Our national ID as rugged individualists does nothing to create a common perspective from which we can collectively "get it".

2) I'm glad you've stuck with it Debbie. I've found your comments very illuminating. I would also encourage you to not stop your blog reading. For myself I will say that just because I'm free with expressing my opinions, doesn't mean I'm making a statement about yours or trying to drive anyone away. My husband and I would have some major problems was that the case! ;) I think we grow as people by embracing differing opinions and striving to understand each other. My blog is merely a reflection of who I am and what I'm going through.

3) Shannon, you are a font of fascinating linkage. How do you find the time?

4) Our kids are in a public charter school with a classical curriculum. They're young yet, but these past few years have seen us working through much of ancient history, through the rise of Christianity, Islam and Judaism and into the Middle Ages. The Bible is a significant document we've taken a good deal of time with. It's served to remind me that if there is one document that no 2 people read and interpret similarly...it's the Bible.

5) I think the single issue voter is a reaction to how embroiled both major parties have become on a social/theological level. I would argue that for many politics and religion are impossible to separate...just as impossible as some find the 2 to reconcile. These issues often become the ultimate deciding factor when all else seems too confusing to understand.

6) blondechicken? If your husband thinks he has a way to make everything about the political process understandable, I would love to hear it! I wish it could be so! As one that constantly struggles to understand the process and the facts behind the issues and the logic that ties it all together, I am most often left thinking we end up in a big muddle as a result of compromise from all sides creating a system that is purely unintelligible and illogical.

Off my soapbox. You all now have my 2 cents. Enjoy!

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

Debbie — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 13:19:22 -0000

Understood. :)

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

julie — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 13:02:11 -0000

Thanks, Debbie. You have helped me understand a little more how religion, and single issue voting, has played such an interactive role in the election process. While I am not defined by a single religion, or issue, I could stand on my own beliefs as the reason for the way I vote and it wouldn't be any more important than the beliefs of others.

I just hope more people feel the way I do this time around.

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

Marikka — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 12:47:59 -0000

You know, I had an awesome conversation on presidential politics with a friend last night and he pointed out the one thing I always tend to forget when big elections come around: who are the undecided? He grew up in a conservative farm community and I spent many summers in Mormon country, so we can see the division on issues and we can respect while disagreeing (not necessarily understanding), but I realized last night that how people remain undecided seems to be more of an issue. We keep hearing about how polarized the country is politically, but if this election will rest on the shoulders of the undecided, what issue will make them decide? Or are they looking for the man or woman most likely to be their friend? Or are they looking for the right charm or smile? I just desperately want to know who these people are so I can understand how their decisions will be made.

But I guess, as a Californian, there's a part of me that has given up on the presidential worry, and I've hunkered down with the worry about equal rights. Californians decided against same-sex marriage before, and now I just worry that we haven't changed enough in the eight years since Proposition 22. I remember being in college at the time and ashamed of my state, and I hate being ashamed of my state.

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

blondechicken — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 12:17:32 -0000

Yay! So glad it was coherent! I fear sometimes that the complexities of being a human being with values (which is most all of us, Christian, Muslum, atheist) and a voter are lost in the loud, simplified election cycle. I, for one, struggle with the burden of being both a feminist and a Christian (pro-life? pro-choice? Who's choice should it be? Should it even be a choice if it truly is taking a human life?) and I know many voters (on both sides) just want an easy answer.
My husband's a Political Science major and ardently believes everyone should understand EVERYthing about the political process and really listen to both sides of EVERY argument, but that can be pretty exhausting. :)
At the end of the day I just hope that everyone continues to work for what they hold dear, whoever the Pres is (and even if we're working towards opposite ends)!

*end of hippie love fest*

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

Kim Werker — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 11:55:28 -0000

You have so *not* gone off topic. Thank you so much for sharing!

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

knitgrrl — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 11:46:00 -0000

Wow, blondechicken. That's an interesting perspective. Thanks for it. I live in a neighborhood inside Cleveland (Ohio) proper that is super-mega-Irish-Catholic. All the policemen, all the firemen, all the city workers who have to live in the city -- they're here. So, as you might expect, there are a LOT of Catholic churches and schools, not to mention several monastic communities (mostly female) within walking distance.

What I always find fascinating each election is their different perspectives re: how to make a political statement. The church down the street puts up a cemetery of fake stones commemorating abortion deaths. The nuns a few blocks away stand outside all day with anti-war signs, signs that read "Vote for justice" and similar (what you might view as liberal) sentiments. So even within their single, Roman Catholic community (which is a bit more monolithic than the many, many Christian denominations out there), there are a wide range of views. I respect that.

It seems to me, having met many of the sisters who are not cloistered, whether at the coffee shop or the post office or wherever, that they do a LOT of work for what you term your one issue...they're super active in caring for the poor, feeding the hungry, helping those in need. I REALLY respect that.

Heck, nuns are even blogging about social issues:

http://anunslife.org/2008/0...

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

knitgrrl — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 11:33:27 -0000

That's been the reason I've kept my knitting blog separate from my other online work since the publication of my first book. It's not just theoretical -- my publisher told me a certain conservative catalog refused to stock my book because of my then-online-store's products, products I didn't even create! (And we're not talking anything that would get you arrested in Alabama, Colorado, Georgia, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas or Virginia, either).

I was a triple-major (poli sci/history/German) in school -- politics has always fascinated me. Yes, I'm on the liberal side of the spectrum, but it doesn't mean I don't respect the other side's right to have their opinions, too.

If you take the publisher example above to its logical conclusion, the catalog people had nothing to say about the actual content of my book, they had a problem with who I chose to associate with online. That's sort of scary, if you ask me. I don't boycott Ravelry because it has pro-McCain/Palin groups, you know?

(Thanks for hosting this thread, Kim. Super-interesting!)

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

blondechicken — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 11:31:10 -0000

Shannon, I can see where you're coming from (question the government! It's what democracy is all about!), but the Bible again and again tells us to honor the government. Now, for some Christians, that means NOT to question. Period.
For me (and lots of other Christians!), that means to be as educated and civic-minded as possible because, in a democracy, the government is created by ME and other voters (ie. not ordained directly by God). Because of that, some Christians become one-issue voters, because they believe it is part of our responsibility to help God's will be done by electing a government that, well, agrees with what we read in the Bible.
This mixture of doing God's will and voting for the good of the country is a tenuous line Christians walk, so please remember that most Christians do take this civic (and Christian) duty VERY seriously. However, since it's a difficult balance and no one party (or candidate) can possibly agree with everything our faith holds dear, I fear that many of my fellow Christians let religious leaders decide what the issues are that matter (and thus, ignore other issues, such as loss of life in war, etc).
I might be a one-issue voter and my issue is: human dignity. Caring for the poor and feeding the hungry. Which is why I'm a Christian Democrat. :)

And this is WAY more than I've ever written about politics! I wasn't going to say anything, but I think it's good to hear from ALL all sides & not just the two political sides, but also how religion affects voting, since that seems to be a big part of Palin's appeal.

Hope I didn't go too off topic here!

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

knitgrrl — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 11:25:42 -0000

You might be surprised to know, Debbie, that not only have I read the Bible, but my specialization in both undergrad and graduate school was the conversion of the northeastern Germanic tribes to Christianity. So maybe you and I have a little more in common than you think! ;)

I also believe in homeschooling, if only because our (my boyfriend and I) experience with both the public and private schooling options were not what we'd like to see for our future children. And we both went to some of the best schools in our area! I've read, on homeschooling websites and elsewhere, references to Obama's book that seem to indicate he's ok with homeschooling, too.

I'm about to leave for a 4-day work trip and really should be packing, but thanks again for talking with me (us)! I'll check in again if I have internet where I'm going.

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

Debbie — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 11:10:49 -0000

I'm coming from a totally different position, however, being a Christian. And I'm coming from a different position than a lot of Christians out there, as well. My savior is my God, not my government. I live here because that's where God put me. I will honor my government, regardless of who is in that presidential seat. But, again, my vote is on the issue of abortion. And, again, I really don't expect many of you to understand and how can I make you understand my heart? I am not one to say, "YOU MUST ALL CONVERT TO MY RELIGION!!!! (although, of course, I'd love that :) ), but that's not my way.

My "religion" is not that, a religion, it's a way of life. I have to simply smile when I see people give me quotes from a Bible I know that they do not read or understand. That would be like me quoting Planned Parenthood, or whatever, to you.

I did not post here to make you understand my views. I know most of you are wholeheartedly passionate about the views you hold and I am not thinking that my one little, squeaky voice can attempt to change your minds. Do I wish you all thought like I do? Sure. Just like you wish you could get me out of my "religious, brainwashed ways" and help me to see the light, the glorious light. :)

If Obama becomes president and pulls out of this war, I will have to honor him in that decision. I don't have to agree with him, but I will honor him.

I'm really not a political person. I don't follow things as closely as others think I should.

This is what I want from my country: A safe place where I can freely homeschool my kids, worship my God and live my life without government interference.

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

knitgrrl — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 10:55:05 -0000

I know, Debbie, I know! But again -- not to belabor the point -- I am really happy to see we can agree to disagree.

Factcheck.org has something to say about the failed abortion ads (and they also say Obama's comeback was off-base) -- this is a nonpartisan site funded by the Annenberg foundation:

http://www.factcheck.org/el...

(yes, if you're a nonpartisan group you might want to title your posts in a little less inflammatory way...)

As for a war's "justness" (wait, is that even a word or did I just totally Buffy it?), I think it's not only our right but our *responsibility* to question our government on something as major as a war. Our country was founded on the principle of government by and FOR the people.

What benefit have we as a country derived from this war? We've spent billions, lost thousands of lives on both sides and for what? I'm not advocating the extreme position here -- such as refusing to pay taxes while the government uses our money to wage war -- I just want them to be held accountable for their actions. Just as you would like to see politicians held accountable for the actions you find objectionable!

Thanks again for responding.

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

Debbie — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 10:49:53 -0000

Kim, I'm not going anywhere. I respect you from the time that I've been following you. Although I don't agree with you politically, I really, really like you (or what I see of you online ;) ).

I'm really not much of a debater and it took me this long just to pipe in. I know what I stand for and why, but I don't like arguing about it. It just brings out an ugly side of me I don't want to see. :)

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

Debbie — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 10:44:38 -0000

:) I know this is not something that we will agree on.

I am not to make judgments on whether or not a war is just. I do not know what's going on behind the scenes. In the Bible that I adhere to Paul says the government has the power to bear the sword. We need to honor that government and Paul said that was said when Nero was in charge.

My priorities are that I need to make sure someone is in office who will protect the lives of babies born alive after a failed abortion.

Re: Talk to Me (Us All) About Palin: Open Thread

Kim Werker — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 10:41:11 -0000

Thank you so much for sharing, Debbie. I truly, truly appreciate it. I wish you won't stop reading blogs because of political disagreements, and I hope the things I've written and will write about politics will stay on the proper side of the line in keeping about the issues and stances and presentation and not about snarking supporters of those things.

It can be very easy to fall into a hole of forgetting that people disagree with you when it's so natural to surround oneself with people who agree. I was naïve to think my own blog might be treated as a commons for disagreement—of course my own opinions pepper everything here, and I was hoping people would just automatically feel comfortable disagreeing.

So thank you, again, for your comments. I maintain my desire for respectful discussion and disagreement here, and I hope you'll be back—if not to talk politics (who could blame you for sitting that out!), then at least to talk everyday life.